Gay Teachers and Brains

My post mulling over atheocracy‘s thoughts on gay hating has generated some rather interesting comments.  I thought I’d share a few.  This stuff is really classic (and indicative of the mental clarity and logic brought to the table by both sides).  (The fun is at the bottom of the post).

Amy starts us off by responding to baddogmooney‘s comment:

By using the word “lifestyle” you ARE showing your prejudice against same-gender loving people.
Gays are BORN gay. Why don’t fundamentalists admit that? They know it’s true, but if they say so, their hatred becomes evident, and they can’t have that, can they…

(Before we continue, bdm’s support of the separation of church and state is quite notable).  Long time commentor Michael D brings the crazy (emphasis mine):

Well I for one don’t agree amy. I don’t hate but I don’t believe gays are born gay I believe they are taught gay. How do you come to assess that “they know it’s true”? I don’t know it’s true and haven’t seen any science to prove it so how is it that you know it’s true over any one that would disagree? And to put the requirement that if you don’t admit it then you are a hater, that’s just strong arm tactics and it makes you a bully.

A bully?  Michael has a history of making bigoted comments, then crying foul when called on it.  Amy isn’t being a bully.

Illusive Freddy adds his own inanity:

The ‘born gay’ argument is bogus. Being gay is a sexual preference, arguably a perversion.

If peadophiles start to argue that they can’t help it and are ‘born that way’ would we all sit back and say ‘oh, well that’s alright then, it’s a lifestyle choice.’

I think not!

Why?  Why is a lifestyle choice something to be fought?  I can understand fighting pedophilia.  That is a horrifying crime.  But sex between consenting adults… the crime is where now?

Thankfully about this time Ralfast steps in:

A question, if I may? Who is teaching homosexuality and how are they teaching it? I mean do you believe that if it where not “taught” they would be no homosexuals? Or that people choose a “lifestyle” that lead to an eternity of scorn and a status of second class citizens (at best) or the victim of violence and death (at worst) .

A bit further down the thread, Michael D backpedals faster than Bill Clinton (emphasis mine):

I never said taught. I said learned. Whether it is learned from the inability to assimilate with the opposite sex or from observation of other relationships (gone bad?), be it heterosexual or homosexual, I can not say for certain what the cause may be but my basic premise is that you are not born gay, you learn it.

To quote Michael earlier in the thread (emphasis mine):

I don’t hate but I don’t believe gays are born gay I believe they are taught gay.

Oops.

Ralfast responds to Freddy’s comment:

freedy…

Thats a low blow, to compare homosexuality to pedophilia. One is an act between consenting adults, the other is the rape and destruction of children and childhood. Big difference there.

Freddy’s counter is…. unique:

Hi ralfast, its not really a low blow when you consider that I’m not attacking the act of being gay, just the attitude that they cant help it because they’re born that way. I find it a contradiction that they have ‘gay pride’ but then hide behind the excuse, ‘we cant help it, its genetic’.
Just be honest and admit its a kink the same as dressing in rubber, whipping your partner, playing spanky or covering your body in jelly and peanut butter then getting the dog to lick it off. (None of the above do it for me you understand).

(What is it with conservative fundy’s and their inner freak?  Not that Freddy enjoys any of the multiple kinky sexual activities he describes in detail, but he added that disclaimer to ensure weak minded patriots didn’t think he was endorsing any of those non sanctioned sexual activities)

Hmmmm.

Let’s head on back to the idea that sex between consenting adults is their business alone.  brian adds:

The whole issue of whether gay marriage is perverse or whether you’re born gay or not isnt even the issue, although i think obviously it’s weird unless it’s two hot chicks, it’s not perverse. The issue is if two gay people are married, does it affect anybody else? No, so it should be legal. I dont understand why christians even care, if gay people are already free to live together, what the hell does it matter if they are married? Religion is so much about brainwashing, people cant think for themselves about anything. Like a robot, they told me homosexuality is evil, so it must be evil. I do what Im told.

jwhaws drops in:

I liked what brian had to say here. He really seems to be starting to get it. All this talk of whether homosexuality is or isn’t a trait you’re born with is just noise, and it confuses the issue that really should be at hand. That issue is “What justifies denying gays the right to marry the person they love?”

I’m not trying to be the Thought Police here. If Christians want to think homosexuals were born straight and simply decided one day to become gay because the coin landed on tails, I’m fine with that. Christians can believe whatever they want about gays. It matters not to me.

The problem arises when they, first, trumpet those views and then, furthermore, attempt to parlay those views into laws and even Constitutional amendments to legislate away gay marriage. I’m holding Christians accountable for their words and actions, not their thoughts.

And that’s the center of the argument.  If you, for whatever reason, dislike homosexuality… Fine.  But that doesn’t give you the right to restrict others based on your psychopathic bigotry.  And it is literally psychopathic, as in inhibiting one’s ability to function appropriately in society.  As jwhaws says:

Let’s say for a moment that you’re right. Let’s say that intercourse between two people of the same sex is a fetish just like any other. There’s no way you could know that, but let’s just assume you’re right for the sake of argument.

It’s still clearly victimless. Both parties consent and want to be involved in the activity. No one is hurt by it. No one even sees it, except for them. Since you’re not claiming their actual love is a fetish, we’ll say that’s real. It’s certainly not unheard of for two people of the same sex to love each other and deeply care for one another.

So why, exactly, would you (and the more crass Tyler Durdin here) want to deny them marriage, in light of this? Just because the actual sex they have is more fetish than it is what we call “normal”? Why do you care? If they love each other and want to have the legal rights of a married couple, what joy do you get from denying them that? Any sex that isn’t specifically for the purpose of reproduction could easily be deemed fetishist. Would you say that any couple that has sex for any purpose other than to have a child shouldn’t be able to get married?

There is no reason whatsoever.  But that doesn’t stop fundamentalists from coming up with their best attempts.  I’ve saved the best for last.

Tyler Durdin spews:

simply put the same part of the brain that tells pedifiles it’s o.k.. to touch little kids, is the same part of the brain that tells gays what there doing is o.k.. This whole topic has nothing at all to do with christian belief, I like to think it is NORMAL human belief. Christians are a little more vocal because not only common sense tells them this is not right, the bible backs it up. I have a 3 year old son and a 2 year old daughter, I would like very much that I will not have to explain to them these un-natural things. I dont even think marriage should be a issue the real question is do these sick people need medication?

I’ve heard of pop psychology, but pop neuroscience?  No, this isn’t even that.  Its just a mad stab in the dark.  Let’s think about this logically.  If we are talking about a part of the brain that, as Tyler puts it “tells person action a is acceptable”, then we are talking about overcoming inhibitions.  The act itself, consensual gay sex vs non consensual sex, isn’t at all the same thing (and to suggest such as insulting and vile).  But if the same parts of the brain are activated, might not the same be said for consensual straight sex and non consensual sex?  If the brain is simply reacting to a social value (being homosexual is wrong, hence the following part of the cortex “lights up” under FMRI), then by the same token having sex before marriage would cause the same reaction.  In the same vein, if homosexuality was accepted by society, then said taboo would not apply, and the brain would have literally nothing in common save for the stimulation of areas of the brain related to sexual pleasure.  And in that case, any sexual act, be it within Church approved marriage or not, would be equivalent from a neurological point of view.  Finally, even if the same parts of the cortex are involved in both acts, it wouldn’t matter.  Because one act is consensual and the other is not, and that makes all the difference.

Just applying a modicum of thought to a fundamentalist’s claim is usually all that is needed to find the glaring weakpoint in the argument and shred it.  Homosexuality is not the same as pedophilia and it is not “taught”.

There is no argument, none whatsoever, for outlawing marriage between consenting adults on the basis of sexual orientation.  Its a transparent attempt to impose Church on State.

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8 Responses

  1. “I never said taught. I said learned”

    Should have been

    “I never meant taught. I meant learned”

    But who cares because I’m just back pedaling.

  2. Thats an important distinction. It changes what you said from a lie to a correction.

  3. “Michael has a history of making bigoted comments”

    You should correct that lie. I am not a bigot. Get over it.

  4. Doesn’t look like he said you’re a bigot, Michael. He said you have a history of making bigoted comments, a claim I can neither confirm nor deny.

    Of course, I do know that you’ve made at least one bigoted comment. And it’s doubtful that’s the only one. So you may, in fact, be a bigot. Dan just didn’t call you one.

  5. Well thank for clearing that up. Which comment do you find bigoted if I may ask?

  6. Hmmmm ….. can’t find it, Michael. I don’t remember which thread it was in. Perhaps Dan can help me out since he talked about your history of making such comments.

  7. I would just like to say that I don’t fancy myself a bigot. I’ll assume that if there is a post that makes me out to be a bigot then it is either my mistake or the context was mistaken. I do go the long way around a point sometimes but it’s just because Dan loves to call me names. 🙂

  8. Michael D,

    “Michael has a history of making bigoted comments”

    You should correct that lie. I am not a bigot. Get over it.

    I uh… don’t know how to say this. I linked to the proof. Here it is again.
    The comments you have made about gay people, asians, and jews have been…. bigoted.

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