witorwisdom tackles the HuffingtonPost with his own… post on protesters:
They are traitors. They hate this country and would like nothing better than to see it fail.
The title is “Tom Delay Questions the Patriotism of Protestors” (Ironically, no one questioned Delay’s patriotism. Or his ethics). Of course, calling dissenters traitors is nothing new.
The problem with this fake patriotic “call protesters traitors” post is that it misses the strength and the beauty of being American. Dissent is the very essence of America. There is nothing more anti-American than throwing around the phrase “traitor” lightly.
This country was built on the rock solid foundations of Freedom and Democracy. That won’t disappear because someone says something you do not like. Criticizing this government and calling out its crimes is not a traitorous act. It is a basic responsibility for every citizen.The argument itself is disingenuous (emphasis mine):
They are traitors. They hate this country and would like nothing better than to see it fail.
Just looking at the war, we protest the war because our country is failing. We understand that this failure is costing American lives, Iraqi lives, the lives of coalition troops, the lives of reporters. We understand that it is making more terrorists, and making the world more dangerous. We understand the billions being wasted on this war could solve problems and save lives wherever we choose, if we so choose. That is the key here. We understand. It is because we understand that we dissent, and we do so out of a deep an ardent love for our country and all the people in it.
American dissenters against the war are not going anywhere. Our feet are firmly planted, and it is this war that shall be moved.
When we raise our voice and roar, that is the sound of patriotism.
UPDATE: Check out the comments thread here for a few examples of eliminationist rhetoric aimed at dissent.
Filed under: America, Delay, Dissent, Eliminationism, Free Speech, Idiocy, Iraq, Politics, Protest, Republicans, Traitor, War
Hmmm, so it’s okay to call the President “Hitler” and that he “lied” to get us into a “war for oil.” Because that’s “dissent.” It’s noble, beautiful, even “the very essence of America.”
That’s actually very flowery prose. Nicely done.
However, those mean nasty people who dissent against the dissenters, who protest against the protesters, are somehow fake patriots who are engaging in mean nasty unfair speech against the noble protestors.
I see. But doesn’t freedom of expression go both ways?
One side calls the other a bunch of bloodthirsty warmongers. The other side calls the first a bunch of Anti-American anti-troop scum.
Freedom of expression. Such a beautiful thing! G-d bless America!
Freedom of expression does go both ways. All ways, in fact.
However calling out the motives for a war is a far cry for calling for the deaths of dissenters.
People are absolutely free to make that argument. I just want to make clear that to call dissenters traitors and call for their elimination is to desecrate the flag more than any burning ever could.
PS
Does anyone still dispute that the President lied to get us into this war? Really?
Bad intel. Given the available information the President did what he thought was in the best interests of America.
Just for the record, I am not personally against people (eg, Boy Scouts) burning the flag respectfully to retire it.
Just thought I’d get that canard out of the way.
BTW, kudos for the debate over at B4B. There was a bit of hyperbole all around but it was still a worthwhile exercise.
Keep on bloggin’!
I’d have thought the Plame affair, and the Bush’s longstanding plans to invade would lead to other conclusions.
Debate is always worthwhile!
Thanks!
Actually, you obviously didn’t read the post very well. I did not say that protestors, people who have honest problems with the war, are ones that I think are traitors. People who engage in treasonous activities such as flag-burning, sharing government secrets (NYT and such), and putting the lives of soldiers at risk by their indiscretion, these are the traitors.
I thought I had made that quite clear. Apparently nothing is clear to some people.
Also, people actually do question Delay’s ethics. I do believe he was under investigation or scrutiny of some kind for that a while back, and was cleared.
Why assume the flag-burners don’t have “honest problems” with the war? How is flag-burning, or reporting, an act of treason?
How are they traitors?
Delay is still under investigation. (wiki)
Honest thinking people do not wipe their behinds with the flag. If they have “honest problems” they can seek honest redress. Burning the flag is something done by stupid people who don’t know how to use their head to accomplish their goals.
I can’t believe you’re actually defending flag-burning scum as somehow articulate spokesmen for your grievances. How “principled” of you.
Honest thinking people do all kinds of things. I don’t think your argument here holds much water. Why is burning the flag something done exclusively by stupid people?
I am saying don’t call for the deaths of “treasonous” flag-burning protesters. It’s hypocritical. They may be desecrating the flag, but you are desecrating what it represents.
I’m simply saying smart “honest” people don’t crap on your lawn to make a statement. And I’m not personally calling for the deaths of anyone. How “honest” of you to suggest otherwise.
So are you going to desecrate a flag to show how “hypocritical” I am? Go ahead and show the world how far out there you really are.
My argument holds plenty of water. If I’m anywhere near you when you set Old Glory on fire my water will put out that fire. Because I believe in the innate goodness of America. I don’t hate the shining city on the hill.
Flag burning, especially in this day, does not make one a traitor. It’s been clearly stated (in the U.S.) that it is a legal practice, and that it’s a way to make a political statement. It is a way of saying “I don’t like what is going on here” when just saying it hasn’t been enough. If no person gets hurt, why is it stupid?
What about the woman who simply stood, wanting to know why her son was dead and the president ignored her? Many people ignored that, because it was easy to do. The image of a heartbroken mother appears easy to ignore, even if it is wrong to do so. An American flag set ablaze is harder to avoid thinking about, and it makes a statement without any words being necessary. Really, it is just another way of getting attention.
Let’s return to the idea of “traitor”. In some countries, the burning of the flag is perhaps tantamount to burning the constitution. Germany, for instance, mentions its flag in its constitution. Ours does not. The flag is a symbol, but not one necessary to the survival of this nation.
Also, one of the great things about this country is the ability to disagree with the government. Saying something is wrong with the government is not condemning the nation itself, but simply saying that there is a problem. Problems exists, even in good places, and ignoring them is what one might call, well, stupid.
Finally, the statement above, “I believe in the innate goodness of America. I don’t hate the shining city on the hill” is interesting. I myself believe in America’s ideals. I enjoy freedom, I vote, and I want desperately to believe in “Mr. Smith Goes to Washington”. I think that there are good people in this country (Jim Webb, for instance, strikes me as a good person in government, from what I know of him). I think that many Americans mean well, that they don’t look down on people from other countries, and that there are a great many honest men and women here. I believe in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
I also believe that our government is full of holes, that our president is either a maladroit or a miscreant, and that there are a lot of bad people in this country. I see an “innate goodness” in the ideals of America, but there is room for change. Change, which is inevitable, is not necessarily a bad thing. Perhaps embracing it could be beneficial. This country was founded on the possibility of change, even the probability thereof. Maybe acknowledging, or even encouraging that, could be a good idea.
Change is more than “not necessarily a bad thing”, it is an essential thing. The same goes for dissent. Sally is right on the mark here. Ignoring problems is profoundly unwise.
Seeing the “innate goodness” in the city instead of in the practice of our democratic ideals leads down the wrong fork in the road. It leads to unquestioning acceptance of authority. That is not American, that is cowardice.
So when we liberals support the right to burn the flag, we are accepting the right to be critical of our government. Without this right, the constitution would be a shallow joke, and we will prevent that from happening.
The way some conservatives feel about the symbol, about the flag, we feel that way about the essence, about the reality and the practice of America.
The right to have and express a political opinion is the foundation of our political system.